Danny Iny: The Education Industry and the future of online courses (Interview)
Chief Executive Officer Greg Smith interviews best-selling author and creator of online courses Danny Iny on the future of education as well as online courses.
About Danny Iny
Danny Iny is the founder of Mirasee, hosting The Business Reimagined podcast, best-selling author of a variety of books such as Engagement from Scratch!, The Audience Revolution, and Teach and Grow Rich, and the founder of the well-known Audience Business Masterclass as well as the Course Builder's Laboratory courses, which have graduated more than 4000 value-driven entrepreneurs. All of this grew out of humble beginnings; he started out just like most online entrepreneurs, having an idea and a message to communicate, but little idea of how to accomplish the job. There were several wrong choices and what he describes as "plot twists" within the Audience Revolution - before really grasping the Audience First paradigm, and how it can be applied to businesses on the internet.
And when he did, it was like lighting the fuse with a match. In 2011, when he launched Firepole Marketing with less than none; he was without traffic, no subscribers or relationships with influencers in the industry along with a quarter of a million dollars of personal debt accumulated from his last failed startup. In just a few short years, he expanded his company to more than seven numbers in revenues and the company has grown to 20+ individuals spread throughout the globe (including his wife, who is a talented artist) who are on a quest to support a very special world-wide community of nearly forty thousand loyal and inspired entrepreneurs. After 2015. Firepole Marketing became Mirasee which reflects its true purpose for the company that is to help visionary entrepreneurs create income through the power of.
To get in touch with Danny go to: mirasee.com
To watch the interview, click the video to the right:
Check out the entire transcript below:
Greg Greg: I'm curious, do you think there's still a need for information-based products? Is that something people should be continuing to do, or should we just go all out education?
Danny: That's an excellent question and the answer is yes, there will always be a market for knowledge. Books, lots of people are buying books. Amazon is basically like the mint of the world because they sell lots of books, and it's excellent. Books are information products, there's always going to be an audience for information, and that's fine. There's no reason to shell out a premium price for information. Therefore, if you're selling information then you must be able to market lots of that to make interesting amounts of money. If you're wondering if people sell information or education, it's dependent on the specific subject, it depends on the change you wish to achieve. If you want to be Jim Collins and you want to inspire a world of leaders to imagine what their businesses can be If you can do that, then great. Create and market books, and a lot of people will take a look. The majority of people will do nothing with them and some of them will adopt some suggestions and some will hire you to consult and pay you like a gazillion dollars. If you care about working with a lesser quantity of people in terms of hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands rather than millions and you wish to help them create more of an impact, then education is the right way to go. The key is what are your goals, what are you trying to achieve, and what's the impact that you want to have? There's a place for information and the need for education. It's a problem when people blur the lines between them and think they're the same.
Greg Greg believe that's an excellent idea, and you certainly observe a lot of this. I'm a big fan of the educational aspect of things and sometimes information too that I feel is an important aspect in certain circumstances. But, given that those lines are blurred, and they're blurred in the minds of the customers and many individuals are engaged in information things and still even marketing them as education even though they're just spitting info at you. So, what are we interested in what they're doing? And this is just me playing the devil's advocate. It's not something I'd support, but when I could make the distinction to the customer and tell them, "This is a course that's an educational product" But there's not any support in the background the product isn't really educational simply information. You are likely to see many individuals do this. they care about the sale but not what happens afterwards. What's the reason I'm concerned what happens after that? Because you obviously care a lot about this.
Danny: So that's a really great question. It's true that this isn't your opinion I'm pretty sure that you're channeling an skeptical view. There's a crucial aspect to that question that I want to kind of make explicit. There's an underlining assumption there that a lot of people have that in business there will be a time when you'll encounter a number of occasions with the dilemma of taking the same smart business choice, that is will make you more money and doing the right thing that's the best thing. My approach to business is they are the similar. For instance, while you might get more people to sign up if you make a course that's not really an actual course, it's simply a bunch of information that you then lie to them telling them you're offering something they're isn't. First of all the refunds will be going to go up, customers will complain, and aren't going be pleased. Therefore, you're not likely to hold onto that money and there will be a huge client service issue and other stuff. Second of all, it's a matter of letting people know what you are about and the values you represent and won't wish to do business with you. And yes, today the boundaries aren't as clear, there's a lack of people doing genuine education. As I wrote Teach and Grow Rich in my field, I was the only one. So I'm very happy to say that now Teach and Grow Rich wasn't a long time ago, it was the month of September. We're registering the program in March. That means it's like just six months. It was just recently that there was a massive launch of a program around LinkedIn Marketing, by Josh Turner, and they have implemented a model of service similar to what we do which we endorse through the program. I just finished an exchange, I'm talking next week with a friend who's a big player in the field of coaching. He declares, "I really like what you're doing and want us to take it on too." This is likely coming this season of summer. And so it is starting to gain momentum and once it starts becoming more mainstream the customers will be aware of what to look for, they're going to be able to identify what they want and they'll be able to ask "So you say there is support but what does this actually look like?" "Oh, there's an online group on Facebook that I can join to talk with others students. I get it, it's not really support. It's su-port." And you can get away with for a bit longer, but constructing your business around the things you're able to get away with for a bit longer isn't a good idea for business.
Greg I completely agree with you and like I said, my first online course was released a decade ago, and I don't do anything for it anymore as I am focusing on helping other people create today, and it's been a long time before I've even touched the subject. The majority of my revenue comes through testimonials, referrals and users who are looking up online reviews. And if you're looking for a quick gain, you're doing this for the short-term and you are kind of not focusing on the main purpose of this game, which is that long-term passive revenue stream.
Danny: Absolutely and the most important issue here, and many think the question is, do I build information products that have no support? Or education products that have lots of support? Of course, with a lot of support comes massive overhead and you'll have to hire coaches, you've got to reply to emails. This is an erroneous dichotomy. not the two options. The education system won't be cost-effective either If you're forced to offer insane amount of support. The thing is you have be prepared to put in the time to get to the point where you can deliver the education well without enormous amount of assistance. Our method of teaching is fundamentally based on the idea that you want to kind of go through these integrative tests. So do a pilot version of your course and then deliver it. Be extremely hands-on and assist students in the areas where they need help, discover where they're stuck, any areas they're struggling with, adjust the course so that they are not necessary any more. Do it over again and again then you just place it in semi-autopilot, with coaches, or any other person you require to provide the assistance. Once you've reached a level where you've reduced the process as much as you can or as is possible, within our course builders laboratory, every student has an individual coach. Because the subject matter is complex, even when it is streamlined it is still not enough. In another course of ours, it was called Write Like Freddy and we shut it down to rebuild it. We are going to reopen the program under the name of Standout Guest Posting sometime in the future. It's a lot less assistance, and definitely not a committed coach since it's a much simpler course it doesn't have the requirement. So it's not that like you need to be at a place where every student gets a dedicated coach and massive overhead, you just have to be willing to put in some time and run through the process of reducing the delivery of your ideas until it's cost-effective.
Greg Then I'm glad that you attended because I think that is a fear. This is something I was anxious about bringing my course up and in operation and I've always thought when I started the coaching thing, how does the course scale? Can it be scalable? We are aware of people who have done this, and we've witnessed people doing it and be capable of scaling. You're in the multi-millions with your classes and have scaled as well as you're focusing on the coaching side of things. So it obviously is an scalable business and I'm awed by that because your approach is very exactly like the approach of lean startup in software.
Danny and you should keep that your mind in the discussion about scalability, and when they talk about scalability with classes as though it's an application. What is the best way to grow my business to millions of customers with out any additional human interactions? This is a single way to scale, however there are numerous models. Zappos operates on massive scale, and it's true that they've got a massive human-to-human interaction. So scalability doesn't mean that there is no interaction with humans, but it is a method of scaling which is cost effective at every type of level of size.
Greg What is the scale at which you strive for a specific proportion of students and coaches? Do you have a gold standard you're trying to achieve with regard to the ratios?
Danny Danny totally depends on the subject matter that is, the subject and the value created is likely to determine what an appropriate price as well as the level of effort that takes place. In the end, you've been able to maintain a balance between two opposing elements. One is you want to ensure that every child receives the help they need in order to be successful. And, on balance that usually means fewer students per coach, rather than more. And on the flip side of this, you have ensure that you're making money, that you are profitable, which means you have more students per coach. Therefore it is essential to discover the balance that is profitable, and where students receive all the support that they require. If you don't go through the lean startup iterative process it's unlikely to get there; like it's extremely difficult to achieve those numbers without a course that's well-designed and efficient.
Greg The question is: If you've got some time that you could devote to coaching materials within the course, do you push more towards a small amount of one-on-one contact via emails or phone calls, or would you put individuals in groups with a coach? There have been a couple of times occasions where I've brought in 12 or more people and the response from the participants has been overwhelmingly positive however, I've always noticed that there's more me speaking and you get a small amount from everyone, they ask questions, but each individual person does not share or talk as much, because you only have one or two minutes in an one-hour or two-hour coach-training session. It does appear that the participants can learn lots of information from each other Do you feel that there's a preference that you go toward group coaching sessions and the one-on-one time, given a limited coaching time?
Danny The answer is an excellent question. This is a very difficult one to address because it's contingent on the subject matter. I mean, some subjects tend to be very sensitive. If you're helping someone learn what to do about an issue that is extremely sensitive to their relationship, maybe they're not keen on talking about it in front of ten other people. Then there's the topic matter and how sensitive it will be and also how individual the questions are going to be. Then there's the coaching style. Also, in the lab of course builders that I'll tell you what we're doing. The most popular method of support is via email. You send the question, you get an answer from your coach within twenty-four hours, as often as you need. Additionally, we have calls. individual calls during key times in the program, where we try to ensure you're in the right place before they move onto the next phase. Also, we offer call-ins during office hours, which means every day, we will have calls that are 45 minutes long. It's an open call on Zoom just like this, where people can just hop on and talk to the court, and even ask questions. In the meantime, we're continually evaluating alternative modalities. Therefore, we're considering the possibility of group coaching in which you're able to create appointments that are ten or fifteen minutes within a ninety minutes office hours time frame. It's looking at long-term, like work parties in which you join and everybody is engaged at the same moment. There is a setup where someone is having a hard time with a problem may join a call with three or four coaches in order to work through the issue. In all of the above, what we're looking at is two metrics. The first is, are we helping our students do better? And the second is how is it reducing or coaches' time? And ultimately it's got to be ideally both however at minimum, it should be one without affecting the other too much.
Greg I think that's fantastic and, from a company's standpoint, I like how you're taking a look at your metrics and making those incremental improvements that are beneficial, which is fantastic. I know you've talked briefly about the pilot program But could you perhaps of provide people with a more of an overview the pilot project? I'm sure this is in your book in more depth, but the overview of how you go about the approach using the pilot project, particularly what I'm looking for is the method you use to manage students' expectations throughout the pilot project.
Danny: So this is a radical concept, but what does it mean is that you inform your customers the truth. It's important to stand open and declare that, this is not an unfinished, polished program It's a pilot and, for the first time. I'm testing my assumptions. What I'm trying to do with the pilot is that I'm looking for feedback on the things that are making it more effective. It'll cost you 50, 100, 1000 or a million dollars. regardless of what it is. But my pilot students will receive the course at a significant discount in exchange for their comments. This is crucial. You're not getting it discounted due to the fact that it's not working at the moment, but you're getting the item at a discounted price because its value remains But I'm in need of feedback so you're paying in part with your cash and in part with your feedback. This is the way to go. And when people know this is the case that they're extremely happy and excited about co-creating this with you in a specific way. And as I talk in my book, I discuss the importance of collaboration, and how important it is in a commercial sense However, they're more accepting, they realize the fact that this isn't supposed to be permanent, they're not evaluating it from an angle of what this look compared to finished courses I would expect it to look like and what's the possibility in this particular situation and how can you provide constructive feedback to help in unlocking the potential?
Greg: Excellent and as people co-create things they can see greater value in them and this leads to pursuing your next class or course, and then recommending it to others or rating it very highly which is why it's so cool to witness that, and I love it. It's a good concept, keep your clients honest Tell them "Hey, it's a pilot, I want your feedback."
Danny: This was the case today within my student group right, somebody shared a post to our student group in which they shared the experience of delivering their first training and their pilot. They had developed their pilot and then selling it using our model and they were able to get a group of people, and were now delivering their first training which was recorded using Zoom and that's exactly the platform that we're recording on. The problem was that they were using the free version and they hadn't realized the fact that Zoom will stop recording after forty minutes. So the class, it was killed, like in forty minutes, ended. Then she was forced to start over a fresh session and get everybody back on and then she felt very ashamed and one of her students said, "Well, it's a pilot. It happens." The students understand and they're very understanding. If you pretend that this is the exact polished version, and that happens, they are going be irritated. But if you are upfront that this is what it is, people are going to be fine with it.
Greg: Yes, that's great. And I think that even the feedback loop can continue long after the pilot has left also. I mean if you start with this mindset, it's something that you'll never want to end. Look at the multibillion-dollar companies such as Slack and Slack, which have been built on this co-creation feedback loop and they continue to incorporate that and continue to do it. It's an integral part of their expansion factor, I believe.
Danny: Absolutely.
Greg The question is: I have one more for you and I believe this is an enormous issue, and this really in the most basic form: can anyone be taught? It's likely that you'll get that sort of bigger image, and the issues which people face. That's why I'll just go on with it. Are there any people who can get online to create online educational materials and teach?
Danny The answer is: this is a good question, but the answer is, but yes. Also, since not everyone can be a teacher, but you have to have something of value that is valuable for people to know and to have the capability to communicate the information in a useful and meaningful way. Both of these are capabilities. But the bar is a lot lower than people think. In terms of having something that other people would appreciate, many consider themselves to be a specialist in my field, I don't have seven PhD's and I've not written three bestsellers. And that's fine, you do not need it, the illustration that I love is that the second-grader the fourth-grader has become an expert. It's not about pretending they know something you do not but rather understanding the significance of the information you know and the people to whom it is actually useful. Second graders don't care whether you're in the fourth grade, or the 8th grader or have an PhD, they just are interested in helping them in their multiplication tables, or whatever else they're trying to achieve. Beyond a certain level beyond that, all the extra data or knowledge becomes irrelevant. It gets into the way. The more you learn typically in your pursuit of knowing, you're likely to be a bit harder of a time understanding the people you are trying to serve. Teaching is definitely a talent as well as an art in it. Certain people are simply talented, skilled teachers. certainly not everyone will be the most effective educator in the world. This is akin to asking, "Can anyone write? It's not likely that everyone will be Malcolm Gladwell, but most individuals can be taught to write better than they are currently in the majority of cases. be taught to write in a way that is good enough that they can be effective. And teaching is the same method. It's possible that you're not an excellent educator in the world, but you can learn how to impart knowledge in a way that is helpful and impactful. The key is to limit the scope of what you're trying to teach, which I discuss often in my book. It's also important, doing the piloting procedure since one thing we forget is that teaching is a learned skill. The ability to teach a certain part of content within the context of a particular situation is a learned skill. So, can you get this right and the kind of result that is successful at first try? Most likely but not. Are you able to get to an extent where you are able to do a good job with it if you try multiple times, receive feedback, and improve every time? More than likely. While not everyone can, the majority of people are able.
Greg"Great, that's amazing and I'm sure that you've come across examples often. In one instance, a man had a skill where co-workers came at him saying "Hey do you want to help me with this?" And it was as you said just very narrow. Just one tool that he was using for work. He eventually made a course mostly for the purpose of preventing people from interrupting his workflow and then said, "Here, you guys could take my course." Then, he began to take off. He left the job and moved to a nice beach, living there along with his spouse and child and teaches full-time on the internet. He has no status as a celebrity, no massive mailing list, or influencer position. And I'm sure there are plenty of people that are more knowledgeable than he is on the subject, but he went out and created this particular course. And he didn't even focus on all the tools, the focus was on a particular aspect of using it which people were always asking questions about. Therefore, I believe it's an opportunity as you say that maybe not everyone can be a perfect candidate for this, but it is possible to find niche topics and then learn the techniques to master it.
Danny Danny: And most importantly, what child did not show their friends in school the way to accomplish something? The majority of us do. That's not to claim that you're the best teacher in the world however, it's to state that teaching, demonstration, communicating are kind of innate to the humans. Therefore, whether you're the top in the world at it and not certainly not necessarily a completely alien concept.
Greg: Yes, definitely. Awesome. Well, I think that's very helpful. I'm certain that everyone in our audience will gain a great deal of value from this. Check out Danny's books Teach and Grow Rich. It is definitely a must-read, great insights starting with piloting your courses to some of the trends which are taking place in this space and in our market and how to make the most of them and ensure that a few in the future, you'll be on top of the curve. Thanks, Danny. I really appreciate your time. Your thoughts on this subject were very helpful and I'm looking forward to chatting more with you in the near future.
Danny: Greg Thank you so much for having me, totally my delight. Look forward to doing it again.